Talk:Izanagi
Article Should we really put this page up for now? I mean, even if it is no longer a spoiler, there has been nothing about this technique that we know of, aside from the name. Just like Chibaku Tensei, when Nagato said its name on Chapter 438, we didn't knew what its effects were until the next chapter. So should we wait until Madara or Danzō explain what the technique actually does before putting this page up? Yatanogarasu 17:18, January, 14 2009 (UTC) Until Madara explains what exactly it does, everything we know about this technique are nothing but especulations. I prefer to wait for his explanation, but we could put the name "Izanagi" in Danzo's page for while, without a link of course, like we did with Chibaku Tensei a long time ago. Shadow Abyss (talk) 02:10, January 15, 2010 (UTC) Just for the record (you may want to put this in "trivia" or something), Izanagi is one of the two Gods in the Shinto creation myth, the other being Izanami. They were a man and a woman who were given a magical Naginata (kind of like a spear) to raise the first earth out of nothingness. They basically became the parents of Amaterasu, Tsukyomi, and Susanno. :For the record, I'm pretty sure this page was only created from vandalism, before the new chapter was released.--Enoki911 (talk) 04:35, January 15, 2010 (UTC) It's going to be made sooner or later. Might as well leave it as something vague and people will edit it later.--The tick rules (talk) 05:46, January 15, 2010 (UTC) Shouldn't we put a pic in the box area, i know it maybe too early but it feels off without one --Exhorresco (talk) 23:32, January 15, 2010 (UTC) Mind-controlling Dōjutsu (Unnamed) isn't this jutsu kind of related to the Mind-controlling Dōjutsu (Unnamed) jutsu because all he does is hypnotising the person he is fighting -- (talk) 09:10, January 15, 2010 (UTC) Pure speculation. The manga is pointing it to being the jutsu he is useing to constantly revive himself.BEsides that jutsu your talking about is an exclusive techinque to him and Shisui only so no its not just hypnotizinng a person like most sharingan can do.Saimaroimaru (talk) 15:34, January 15, 2010 (UTC) That isn't what it is pointing out. It is pointing out that the jutsu allows the user to split in and out of reality. Therefore allowing them to touch others but not be touched themselves. This would still not allow for mind control.WolfMaster (talk) 21:37, January 23, 2010 (UTC) Uh what are you talking about. The dude before me thought Izanagi and shusui jutsu were related when they weren't beyond their user.Saimaroimaru (talk) 04:27, February 11, 2010 (UTC) Agreed Upon? "It is interesting to note that Izanagi may also be the technique that Madara used to escape Amaterasu which Itachi had implanted into Sasuke's eye to prevent their meeting." Well is it? We shouldnt put unconfirmed stuff, Im removing it --Exhorresco (talk) 18:52, January 16, 2010 (UTC) It's possible that he just used his space-time technique. But Madara is still a possible user. We haven't seen his left eye yet, which leads me to think that the "damage" that his sharingan supposedly has was due to using Izanagi at the end of his battle with the First. Not only would this explain (some) his supposedly lost power, but also how he fooled the First into thinking he was dead. Or, Madara could've kept the fact that he had the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan obscure( to himself ). This in turn keeps the fact that he is immortal, hidden. ::Madara's survival was due to some other jutsu. Itachi the databook claim that his eyes are fine, and the databook stated that the jutsu he used to survive and stay alive is known only to him.Wreiad (talk) 20:54, January 22, 2010 (UTC) ::Really which one? Can you send me a link, image, anything at all? ::Sure. Read the tobi Translation http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1175216&postcount=1 and the chapter page http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/10/ EDIT: Please remember to sign your comments.Wreiad (talk) 21:09, January 22, 2010 (UTC) ::So you agree with me that it wasn't Izangai that Madara used? thx for the links!!^_^JaiBoogie (talk) 21:42, January 22, 2010 (UTC) :::The databook came out before the new chapter did. It's possible that some things were changed. However, odds are that he did not use this jutsu to escape Sasuke's Amaterasu. Putting that in the page is speculation.--Enoki911 (talk) 01:59, January 23, 2010 (UTC) ::Yes Jai, I'm doubtful it was Izanagi. It really doesn't seem like that given the picture of him pierced with a sword and how someone poofs after being fatally hit while using Izanagi. @ Enoki | He seems to have used the Kamui jutsu to remove the fire. I agree this stuff should be left until it the truth comes to light.Wreiad (talk) 02:23, January 23, 2010 (UTC) Yes and due to the fact that Madara stated here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/04/ at the bottom of the page that the eye's used to cast Izanagi would lose their eyesight and never open again. Doing the math considering the fact that he fought the 1st after taking his brother's eyes, if he used the technique to escape the 1st then that left him with one good eye. Then if he used it to evade the Rasengan that would leave him blind. If he took Itachi's eyes after Sasuke said that he didn't want them he would be able to use it two more times. If he used Izanagi to put out Amaterasu he would again have on good eye. Now i'm not going to go through the other attacks that Madara evaded but I will use his fight with Fu as the last example. During that fight he was stabbed through the head if he used Izanagi then he would be blind again therefore unable to watch the fight between Danzo and Sasuke. This is only if you are stating that Madara's time-space jutsu is Izanagi. Also it can be fair to say that Izanagi is not a Mangekyo technique seeing as how Danzo doesn't appear to have a Mangekyo sharingan on his body and the evidence of the eyes that used Izanagi would close and the sharingan that have closed were normal then that means anyone who possesses the normal sharingan can use it.WolfMaster (talk) 21:25, January 23, 2010 (UTC) Question When Danzo releases Izanagi, does the closed Uchiha eyes reopen? --Exhorresco (talk) 23:43, January 20, 2010 (UTC) :Wait until Friday and see for your self. Jacce | Talk 05:24, January 21, 2010 (UTC) :No. Honza8D (talk) They don't reopen as Madara states here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/04/ that any sharingan that is used to cast the technique would close and never reopen.WolfMaster (talk) 23:35, January 23, 2010 (UTC) Image I have this image, but I don't know if it is good enough to put up on the page. --Mpc797 (talk) 01:32, January 23, 2010 (UTC) :How does that represent the jutsu at all? Simant (talk) 01:34, January 23, 2010 (UTC) ::It shows Danzo negating the effects of him geting hit by the arrow, which is represented by the puff of smoke--Mpc797 (talk) 01:36, January 23, 2010 (UTC) :::This is good, but I think we should also include a picture of Danzo's eyes closing. (talk) 14:38, January 24, 2010 (UTC) I think we should add this to the page, since the division of the Tailed Beasts is a very important use of the technique. Omnibender - Talk - 20:35, September 18, 2010 (UTC) :Mm, I think the current image illustrates how it works better. ZeroSD (talk) 00:30, September 19, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm not suggesting to use it as the main image, just to have it added to the article. While it does show the complete technique, unlike Danzō's incomplete Izanagi, it shows very little. Maybe if they do a flashback and show it better, or if Madara uses it to make something big as well, but not that one. Omnibender - Talk - 00:56, September 19, 2010 (UTC) Genjutsu I know that this is confirmed genjutsu, but I don't quite understand how. Genjutsu acreate illusions; Izanagi makes illusions into reality. Can someone explain?--Enoki911 (talk) 02:01, January 23, 2010 (UTC) *Basically, this genjutsu is so powerful that it actually warps reality, though only in a short range. Instead of creating illusions, one becomes illusions. Omnibender - Talk - 02:06, January 23, 2010 (UTC) ::That doesn't quite make sense. It says in the article itself that, according to Madara at least, the user places the genjutsu on themselves. If that is so, then wouldn't that only cause the user to only think that they were dead, when in actuality they weren't?--Enoki911 (talk) 02:29, January 23, 2010 (UTC) This can be summed up with a philosophical theory that life is all a dream and you are merely the imagination of yourself meaning that like genjutsu life is just an illusion. If following this idea and thinking of the statements made about Izanagi being able to alter reality and being cast on the user. This will mean that Izanagi is a genjutsu that alters a preexisting illusion (reality) of the user who is also an illusion since they are the imagination of themselves. This explains the effects how the user is very aware of themselves as reality and they are both illusions and Izanagi alters both at the same time. The jutsu simply makes the user (illusion) unable to be hit by another person (another illusion) but to still be able to touch them. And if the user is aware of the genjutsu cast on them they will not feel any effect of the genjutsu other than altered perception. This may have complicated things, but does this help to explain the jutsu?WolfMaster (talk) 21:35, January 23, 2010 (UTC) :If we were to accept that philosophy as true, then yes. However, this is a highly debatable theory, so it doesn't quite seem adequate to me. There is no proof, both in the Naruto world and the real world, that we are mere illusions, dreams, etc. Any other ideas?--Enoki911 (talk) 07:02, January 24, 2010 (UTC) ::Amusingly enough, there is no proof we aren't mere illusions or dreams. Just because we feel, doesn't necessarily make us real. Ponder that for a moment. ^_^ We do know however, that this is a genjutsu cast on oneself that warps reality for the user.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:22, January 24, 2010 (UTC) Exactly, all i'm saying is that if a genjutsu (illusion technique) is used to affect actual reality and not just the reality of what seems to be then reality has to be an illusion itself as genjutsu, by what has been said so far can only affect illusions and alter perceptions. However altered perceptions does not count here as that would be implying that Izanagi makes the enemy think that they hit the user when they actually did just for the injury or death to be turned into an illusion. I'm not saying that there is proof or even that reality is an illusion but so far this is all we have to go on as one chapter is not enough to explain a jutsu completely if it is kept ambiguous throughout the chapter. Though I do have a question of my own, though Izanagi changes reality and only lasts a short time. Then why didn't Sasuke see through the illusion sooner than he did? After all one ability of the sharingan is to be able to see past genjutsu, this job being made easier since Sasuke wasn't the one trapped in the genjutsu.WolfMaster (talk) 15:33, January 24, 2010 (UTC) :A) If you want to have a philosophical discussion, then go to my talk page. B) In response to your Sasuke question, WolfMaster, either Sasuke did see through Izanagi, and kept quiet so that Danzō wouldn't know that he knew, or he was simply too distracted by his anger at Danzō, having to focus on the fight, and the strain of using Susanoo. Personally, I favor the first.--Enoki911 (talk) 17:29, January 24, 2010 (UTC) Madara I know this isn't confirmed and it shouldn't be posted until it is but it is more than likely that Madara is able to use Izanagi for a couple pf reasons. For one he probably used it to survive from the first hokage making him go blind in his left eye. That would also explain why he wheres a mask that only has one eye hole. Remember this is just a theory not fact so nobody edit any pages because of this. (talk) 23:14, January 23, 2010 (UTC) :Let's rethink this. Madara has an eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, meaning it doesn't go blind. If he did indeed use Izanagi, would the effect Blindness apply to him? We don't know. Furthermore, Itachi already said his eyes are fine, and the databook claims his jutsu is something else.Wreiad (talk) 23:33, January 23, 2010 (UTC) It actually states that you can't go blind by normal means with the eternal mangekyo sharingan, which Izanagi is not a natural way of going blind. But still it hasn't been proven that Madara can use Izanagi, it's just a theory. (talk) 23:49, January 23, 2010 (UTC) :This is not a forum. Do not post speculation here.--Enoki911 (talk) 06:59, January 24, 2010 (UTC) Genjutsu ?? Dōjutsu?? "Izanagi is a Sharingan dōjutsu which the Uchiha clan deemed forbidden. According to Madara Uchiha, it is the most powerful genjutsu an individual can cast upon themselves." I'm a bit confused here... --Blaublau94 (talk) 06:33, February 2, 2010 (UTC) :There's nothing to be confused about, the two terms are not mutually exclusive. Genjutsu means the technique creates an illusion, while dōjutsu means the technique is performed with one's eyes. Izanagi is both. --ShounenSuki (talk | ) 08:09, February 2, 2010 (UTC) Effects According to this article, "The actual effects of Izanagi varies from user to user". But, where it this stated? (talk) 15:25, February 5, 2010 (UTC) :Chapter 479, page 5. Wreiad (talk) 17:10, February 5, 2010 (UTC) Meaning From what I've read about Shinto mythology, Izanagi does not literally mean God of Creation, and also, the technique name is written in hiragana, so the literal English should be just "Izanagi". (talk) 00:01, February 6, 2010 (UTC) abilities i understand how izanagi can make reality an illusion because of how he doesn't die but i don't understand how it can make illusion a reality. can someone explain that? -- (talk) 03:22, February 11, 2010 (UTC) :Sorry, but we don't write this story. Wreiad (talk) 05:12, February 11, 2010 (UTC) :Probably something akin to the time-space jutsu other sharingan jutsu have combined with genjutsu. ZeroSD (talk) 23:37, March 25, 2010 (UTC) Genjutsu become real? According to SJ(American version) it also makes Genjutsu become real.Umishiru (talk) 01:47, August 26, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, real to the user only. It is a Genjutsu the user casts on ones self. Arrancar79 (talk) 01:53, August 26, 2010 (UTC) Oh, nevermind, I knew that, was thinking something else.Umishiru (talk) 02:31, August 26, 2010 (UTC) Sorry Oh i'm sorry about deleting the last edit, I didn't read the new chapter until now Rinnegan Since the Sage of the Six Paths could use it, and he didn't have a Sharingan, what should we do? Remove the Sharigan from the requirement or list the Rinnegan as a requirement as well? Omnibender - Talk - 22:39, September 15, 2010 (UTC) I think we should list the Rinnegan since it said it required Uchiha and Senji Blood, So that means It need the Sharingan(Uchiha) and Rinnegan (Senji) that's probally why the Ten tails has an eye like that We could put both.--FullMetalXY (talk) 22:57, September 15, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm thinking the sage's eyes were mutated by the Juubi's chakra to the point of gaining tomoe, and that not only created a new dojutsu, but allowed him to use Sharingan dojutsu. Yes, this is a theory, but the tomoe shown over his head when he's depicted obviously means something, perhaps that he gained more power from using the Juubi's chakra. Madara himself claims to want to become the Juubi's host, and he wants the rinnegan, and has claimed before that the plan is about the "sharingan's true power", which could be referring to the Juubi's dojutsu or it's chakra mutating his eyes. Right now the rinnegan shouldn't be added as a requirement because it wouldn't make any sense. It simply hasn't been shown as possessing any significant abilities or similarities with the shairngan. At the very least, if possible, we should have a high resolution image of this page to show whether or not the sage's rinnegan gained tomoe as indicated by the symbol above his head and the diagram. It seems to be in eyes, but let's be sure. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/12 Wreiad (talk) 03:00, September 16, 2010 (UTC) This jutsu was created by the Sage of the Sixth Path, it's obviouly a Rinnegan jutsu, in origin. Only a rinnegan user has the the power of both Uchiha and Senju (who are derived from the sage), because he can use any form of chakra, elemental or yin and yang. Izanagi was created using yin and yang by the Sage. This is why madara wants the rinnegan, because even if he acquired the power of hashirama, he has to sacrifice an eye to use this jutsu, just like danzou ::Please sign your comments. There is no evidence that it was Rinnegan dojutsu in origin, as that would make it a kekkei genkai. Madara mentioned that having the Senju and Uchiha's "powers" is what gives one access to Izanagi, not having the Rinnegan. He claims the foundation for Izanagi is manipulating spiritual and physical energies, and never attributes it to the Rinnegan. As I said, it may be a dojutsu that was given birth to by the dojutsu the sage attained from having the Juubi's chakra, and would thus explain why there are tomoe shown in his eye. Madara himself has claimed that his plan is about the Sharingan's true power, not the Rinnegan's. Wreiad (talk) 14:42, September 16, 2010 (UTC) Having the Senju and Uchiha's "powers" IS having the Rinnegan. It's clearly stated that the Senju has the physical body and willpower of the Sage and the Uchiha the chakra and the eyepower. "manipulating spiritual and physical energies" is the manipulation of yin and yang, and that PRECISELY one of the Rinnegan attributes: the ability to use ANY chakra manipulation, it is stated many times. There's no tomoe in the Sage eyes, we've only seen the Sage with the rinnegan and a little view of the eye of the juubi. it is the juubi who has the tomoe. "the sharingan true power" is the Rinnegan of the Sage, because with the Rinnegan you can build up the juubi and use the perfect izanagi just like the Sage did -Beldin September 16 ::Having the Senju and Uchiha's "powers" is not having the Rinnegan; he and Konan never says that. Again, spiritual and physical energies are not kekkei genkai, nor is being being able to manipulate them. The rikudo merely discovered something that already existed. Izanagi would be a Rinnegan kekkei genkai if the Sage used it with his Rinnegan in the sense of being a dojutsu, and that wouldn't make any sense at all when given how Nagato has never been shown to have used a Sharingan technique. I'm not sure how many times I can say it's better to wait until there's a much higher resolution image to confirm that rikudo's eyes had tomoe. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/12 Right now there's more to indicate that his eyes mutated from the Juubi's influence and that's what ultimately gave rise to Izanagi, not the Rinnegan, which as never been shown to have the same powers as the sharingan until this unique circumstance. The eye is even shown with 6'' tomoe versus the Juubi's ''9, so it's not the Juubi's eye, but Rikudo's under the influence of it's chakra. The 6 tomoe most most likely has something to do with the Juubi and being the "sage of the 6 paths", as his necklace most likely has to do with the Juubi given how Naruto attained something similar from the fox recently. The Rikudo didn't create the Juubi either. He's only said to have created the tailed beasts known today from splitting it's chakra. Wreiad (talk) 02:53, September 17, 2010 (UTC) That's a lot of speculation. Nothing was ever said about how the Ten-Tails affected the Sage of the Six Paths, just that he became stronger. Also, the Rinnegan laid foundation for Sharingan and Byakugan, not the Ten-Tails. The Sharingan evolved from the not-quite-Rinnegan dōjutsu the older son had, and as far as we know, the Sage already had sons when he became a jinchūriki. Omnibender - Talk - 23:49, September 17, 2010 (UTC) Yin and Yang Let me see if I got this straight. Sage of the Six Paths used a genjutsu to create the Tailed Beast, and since he said he the process involved Yin-Yang manipulation, this genjutsu has a nature. Omnibender - Talk - 23:14, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :If Yin and Yang are elements, aren't all genjutsu elemental? --GoDai (talk) 03:57, September 16, 2010 (UTC) ::The same confusing thoughts can be applied to the Nara Clan's shadow based techniques and others alike. I think we should avoid dwelling on such thoughts until the manga clarifies more of this. Besides, Madara have only explained how he used the properties of both to create anything from nothing and how the same can somehow be applied with Izanagi. --Gojita (talk) 16:56, September 16, 2010 (UTC)Gojita Omnibender knows where I'm coming from because me and him are talking about this, but Izanagi is a YinYang elemental technique that can turn Imagination and thought into reality. Technically, it is much more than a genjutsu, it really is a jutsu that has multiple abilities, one being a genjutsu like ability, another being able to create even living things. --Sauske-Blaze (talk) 20:01, September 16, 2010 (UTC)Sauske-Blaze There is also something else to discuss on Inzanagi, Madara says that only people who have uchiha and senju power can use it, but the uchiha labeled it a kinjutsu, meaning they were familiar with the technique, meaning that many people probably could use it if they bothered announcing it was declared a kinjutsu, meaning that many people would have had senju/uchiha power.....just a though --Sauske-Blaze (talk) 01:32, September 17, 2010 (UTC)Sauske-Blaze sry im posting three times in a row but i realized that in the article you need both uchiha/senju power to fully utilize the technique, which i agree and think it makes sense, the uchiha could only use a variationof Izanagi --Sauske-Blaze (talk) 01:34, September 17, 2010 (UTC)Sauske-Blaze I think there is an explanation of how they knew about it. The matter of the tablet at Naka Shrine which can only be read by possessors of the Sharingan, Mangekyo Sharingan, and Rinnegan which has the story of the Sage written on it. Izanagi was originally his technique, so it more than likely had atleast a small mention of it on the tablet.WolfMaster (talk) 00:48, September 24, 2010 (UTC) Duration Madara said during the Danzo fight that Izanagi normally lasts for 'the briefest of moments' (chap 479 p2). I'm having trouble figuring out how to add that info in a phrasing that fits well. Also presumably this is for the incomplete non-senju boosted version, but that might fall under speculation. ZeroSD (talk) 02:27, September 17, 2010 (UTC) :It was "Senju boosted" it's the only way he could use all those eyes. It's just that he was unable o control it--Cerez365 (talk) 02:41, September 17, 2010 (UTC) ::I know, I just think we should mention the base duration somewhere. ZeroSD (talk) 05:14, September 17, 2010 (UTC) danzo using the tech " He also had Orochimaru extend the lifespan of each Sharingan's Izanagi to a minute, allowing him to use the technique for up to ten minutes, with breaks in between as he deemed necessary." There's no specific reference to how long he can use it, that says it's a minute for each. In fact it makes a point of saying that's why he keeps looking at the eyes on his arm, because the time of each was extended but not necessarily a minute flat as this says. It just seems like it needs to be changed and not so specific. (talk) 21:02, December 15, 2010 (UTC) miah :Chapter 479 page 5, Madara comments that Orochimaru must have experimented on the eyes to make the jutsu last longer and Danzo is thinking that he only have five eyes left and take his "chance on the next minute". Page 11 shows Karin counting seconds and gets it to one minute and comments that Danzo's chakra dropped. Jacce | Talk | 21:13, December 15, 2010 (UTC)